Tancredi - Comments for "Photoshop CS3 and Save for Web issues"

thank you

I used PC for many years and

I used PC for many years and just recently purchased a Macbook Pro and a new monitor. With the PC I had everything working OK. My monitor is calibrated with the Huey Pantone Pro and is set t 2.2 Gamma. I am having trouble matching color with the â€œSave for Web & Devicesâ€. I never had this problem with my PC. I was not aware that Safari will see an ICC profile whereas most other browsers will not.
My workflow. I shoot in RAW and RGB, work in TIFF and convert to sRGB before using â€œSave for Web & Devicesâ€. In â€œSave for Web & Devicesâ€ the preview menu is set for Uncompensated Color. Using PC this worked fine. The image I sent always matched my original. I noticed with MAC it does not.
I sent 2 images to a website I frequent, one tagged and one not.
When I view the tagged image and set the Proof Setup to Windows RGB it matches.

When I view the untagged image on Windows RGB it does not match.

When I switch to Monitor RBG it matches the untagged image.

Iâ€™m not sure how this relates to how I see my image compared to how the rest of the world sees it. At this point I would think that if I do not want to tag my images and ensure everyone sees it the same way I do I should be working in Monitor RBG. Does this make sense? I did scour through Andrew Rodneyâ€™s â€œColor Management for Photographersâ€ about this but could not find the answer.

@James: That article is

@James: That article is good, it explains colour management quite well. I'm not sure what he means when he is saying that CS3 converts to sRGB twice when saving for web. My workflow is slightly different from his as I use Proof Colors in Photoshop to see how images will look on my monitor when saved.

@Tiff: Sorry, I've never seen that issue before. Does it happen to all images? Try a reinstall if you get really stuck.

This is going to sound

This is going to sound really stupid, but i have somehow done something to Photoshop and my "save for web" cannot be selected!! does anyone know how I can fix this?

thanks man...i was facing

thanks man...i was facing this problem

Tancredi: What is your

Tancredi: What is your perception of this article? http://athleticsnyc.com/blog/entry/color-management-for-web-designers-an...

Thank you thank you thank

Thank you thank you thank you! What a silly setting to change by default. Saved us from downgrading...

Hi David, I'm not sure how

Hi David, I'm not sure how to solve that issue. Have you tried stripping the gamma information from the png? Remember that pngs hold gamma info which can make the png look a little washed out or different from a similarly saved jpeg. Search the comments of this post for links to programs which will strip this gamma data from pngs.

What does your png look like if you don't convert it to sRGB when you save for web? Does it look right when viewed in a web browser? Are you colour managing your Photoshop document and what is your working profile in Photoshop? If you proof your colours as Monitor colour, does your image look correct still?

There are a number of factors which may be affecting your image and its best to find out how you're working in Photoshop before diagnosing the problem. Post your settings and I'll try and help.

Tancredi, I'm still having

Tancredi,

I'm still having issues with Flash. I don't import the PSD because it's a joke, but I do save assets as PNG and import them into Flash. Much easier for me.

Here's the issue though. The PSD files I'm working with are using he Adobe RGB (1998) color profile. I have no choice but to use it. If I convert it to sRGB, the colors die. Also, Flash does not understand embedded color profiles, and it will simply assume that the file is sRGB. To get what I have in Adobe RGB (1998) to look proper in flash, I have to Save for Web as a JPEG, letting it convert it to sRGB. When I import the JPEG, it looks right!

But, when I Save For Web as PNG, converting it to sRGB, the colors are still flat when I import it into Flash. It looks right in the preview before saving, but it's clearly not doing what it does to JPEG. I'm not using color compensation for either of the files.

Is there no way to properly convert my Adobe RGB (1998) PSD file to an sRGB PNG file?

Hey Tancredi, thanks for all

Hey Tancredi, thanks for all the feedback and everything. I must have been doing something wrong after I got my first set of good results, or tinkered with it some more and undid what I did.

I recently saw this article: http://www.viget.com/inspire/the-mysterious-save-for-web-color-shift/ and I followed all the steps there and it's working perfectly. It's basically the same thing that you're advising.

Thanks again.

zaaaaa4eeeeet! ) Thanks!

zaaaaa4eeeeet! )

Thanks! This really helped!

Ahhh this little tip saved

Ahhh this little tip saved me quite a bit of frustration when dealing with skin tones on many of my photoshop projects that I work on for a skin care line. It seems that my monitors (higher resolution and more color than the average web surfer's) show a different color of skin, especially from PS to my screens, to say a 17" crt. The transition is sometimes not always graceful. I personally like many of the little features Adobe continues to add to PS, like the way windows can be dragged out of the program now (Very convenient). But one of my biggest gripes about the upgrades between versions are also the little things, like the sudden change of key commands. I remember when the move from PS6 to Y changed the ctrl+U command. Highly annoying.

Very informative page.

Very informative page. Thanks a lot.

Tancredi! Thanks, that

Tancredi! Thanks, that actually makes sense and I understand what another photographer was telling me she did with her monitor color. Now then, what is the point of calibrating and profiling? Isn't it to re-align the monitor's color to show them "right"? Wouldn't a calibrated monitor show the color the exact same as another calibrated monitor right next to it?

I need to figure out where I can switch it to see it for myself, you know, "hands on" learning and all that. I can sort of understand what you're saying, but it's still too fuzzy. So much so I can't quite formulate the remaining questions I have in my head.

thanks again, I'll be back, I need to find the PC equivalent to the profile switcher I saw around here somewhere :)

AndrÃ©e, I think that

AndrÃ©e, I think that Windows sRGB profile is exactly the same as Photoshop's sRGB profile. I know it is on my Apple Macbook Pro. I can test this by switching my monitor profile (in System Preferences -> Displays -> Color) from Color LCD (Macbook Pro's default colour profile) to sRGB IEC61966-2.1. Then my images look identical in PS as they do outside of PS (as long as PS is using sRGB as working profile).

Because you have calibrated your screen you are no longer using the sRGB profile, you have created your own unique profile. Therefore the images will look different in PS (which is using the sRGB profile) than they do on your screen (which is using your unique profile). Does this make sense? This is where the difference is occurring.

If you want your images to look the same in PS as they do on your screen while still maintaining a colour profile you need to 'Proof Colors' as Monitor RGB in PS.

Thank you for the in depth

Thank you for the in depth summary Tancredi!

I think the only thing I'm not getting is WHY photoshop's "pure" sRGB, as you put it, would be different from either a calibrated or un-calibrated monitor. I mean, I do understand there would be a significant difference from one monitor to another, and also if my PS workspace color was set to Adobe RGB then I'd see a significant difference out of PS...

ok, let me think, PS uses Windows RGB (since I don't see a shift in proofing color, I'm assuming PS's sRGB and Windows sRGB are one in the same, on a PC that is), and Monitor sRGB would basically be what my image looks like uncalibrated?? Well, that doesn't make sense to me either...

The only thing I've come across that seems to be making sense for me is on my CRT monitor, if I set my hardware white point to 6500K, I see a huge difference when proofing my images from normal sRGB to Monitor RGB, if I set it back to my custom white point (before I had a calibration device) there isn't much of a shift at all between the sRGB workspace color and my Monitor RGB proof color. Now why would that be?

I'm trying out my husband's LCD screen at the moment and am running into similar, yet MUCH less distinguishable, problems.

Can a 4 year old CRT monitor already be exhibiting signs of "old" age?

I don't think any of this will help anyone, but I'm hoping someone stumbles across this and says, HEY! I had that problem and fixed it THIS way ;)

Hi AndrÃ©e, I think you've misunderstood a little. The sRGB colour space is arguably the web's colour space because around 90% of web users are using a Windows operating system which uses the sRGB colour space by default. Part of the sRGB specification is setting the gamma to 2.2 (CRT gamma). This gamma setting on Windows computers is different to the gamma setting on Macs (which have a different colour profile by default).

When you view your images in non-colour managed software, like web browsers (including Safari unless the image is jpg and saved with colour profile intact) you'll be viewing the image in your monitor's colour space (sRGB by default on Windows). When you view your image in Photoshop with colour management turned on (default) the image may look slightly (or largely) different depending on your monitor's profile, the Photoshop working space and the colour profile stored in the file.

If you want your image to look the same in Photoshop as it does in non-managed applications you need to either strip colour profile data from the image in Photoshop and have Photoshop run in non-colour managed mode (see my post at the top of the page) or set up Photoshop to use your choice of colour profile as working space (I suggest sRGB for consistent web use) and then proof what you see as Monitor RGB (view->Proof Setup->Monitor RGB. Then View->Proof Colors).

If you choose to maintain colour information in Photoshop and are using sRGB as your working profile you may notice some difference in colours. This could be due to gamma settings or simply your monitor profile not being sRGB. To ensure you have wysiwyg you need to proof your Photoshop image in Monitor RGB then output it in sRGB. This should give you the correct output. At least it does for me. This is the only way I can get consistent colour and hang on to the profile data until I save it for web use, at which point it should look roughly the same on most computers (but not Macs). By the way, I use a Mac so I also proof my images on a Mac monitor and also simulate it in Photoshop to get a more balanced idea of what the web image will look like on different machines and monitors.

So the factors which will effect your colours will be:

The profile data stored in the image you open in Photoshop
Whether you decide to alter the profile or keep it as is
What profile you are using as your working space in PS
Whether you have set up your monitor and moved away from the sRGB space
Whether you are on a Mac or PC
How you output your images from Photoshop
Whether you are proofing your colours in Photoshop

From your post it looks like you are on the right track, but I suggest you look at your monitor's calibration. Also check that your PS working profile is sRGB. Set up your proof as Monitor RGB and then use Save for Web and see if the image looks different (washed out or too dark etc).

I suspect the difference you are seeing is the difference between your monitor's profile and Photoshop's 'pure' sRGB profile (Proofing colours gets around this). As a quick test I just set my monitor's profile to sRGB then viewed an image in Photoshop with and without proofing as monitor RGB and the colours didn't change. This shows that Photoshop will display your images differently if your monitor's colour profile is different from Photoshop's working profile (as it should). So make sure you proof your colours to see the final output unless your monitor profile is the same as your Photoshop working profile.

I hope this makes sense and helps. Please post your finding here to help other visitors.

Please note I'm no expert on this subject...

Ok, I've been dealing with

Ok, I've been dealing with this "issue" for a few weeks now (or I only noticed it a few weeks ago) and I've been reading so much my eyes hurt. Seriously.

Now let me ask, if sRGB is the "base" color space for most web browsers (is that right? Or is that where I'm wrong to start?) then how is it that in PS (CS2, or CS3, or LR, or Safari I've seen no difference between them, they are all color managed applications) the sRGB image I see is LESS saturated than my Monitor RGB, or turn that around, how is it that it is MORE saturated in every other application than in PS. Shouldn't PS's sRGB color space be similar to a non-color managed software's display colors? As it is, say firefox, is displaying my images much closer to that of Adobe RGB, which is apparently the opposite problem everyone else is having....

Shouldn't what I see in any non-color managed software use sRGB as I see it in PS??

Can you tell I'm not "getting" this? I've been banging my head, pulling my hair... not a pretty sight.

That said, the reason behind all this is the following... I'm coming from the photography side of this issue, but I'm also trying to upload my images to the web to share with other photographers. So I can't NOT color manage, and I'm already using a purely sRGB workflow, from my camera to the save as jpg option (not even using save for web, so your post didn't help me, although I'm slowly getting a grasp on everything else), so whole workflow is sRGB. So there is no shifting, EXCEPT when I view any images outside of PS.

I think I'm repeating myself... anyone get all that?

Very useful tip. Thanks for

Very useful tip. Thanks for sharing.

We had been trying to save

We had been trying to save images out with black background (111111) and it was converting to (040404) resulting in a visible black box. Just wanted to say thanks for the post - its people like you who bring some sanity to developers and designers all over the world just by sharing even the smallest of tips. Its things like this that can easily cost your an hour or two in the studio. Good work mate.